V6II / Pentax / P-TTL pass-thru / Metz 58 AF-1 / no REAR sync

hhe

When I have the Metz 58 AF-1 on the camera (Pentax K-1), I can use REAR sync in Flash Mode P-TTL and M and the activ REAR sync is shown at the display of the flash.
When I put the V6ii in pass-thru mode inbetween camera and flash, the REAR isn't shown at the flash display and it really doesn't work in REAR mode. Any idea, how to get the REAR sync via P-TTL pass-thru working?
Firmware version of V6ii is 1.1.010.

raychan

I don't have Metz 58AF-1, but used Pentax AF-540EGZ to test. 

What I did is to set the sync more to REAR SYNC, just like what I did in the picture. On the other hand, make sure the V6II activates TTL pass-through by pressing and holding the V6II MENU button for 2 seconds. 

At the same time, please also check the <CAMERA & FLASH SETUP>, make sure the camera and flash system is using <PENTAX> .

I hope that helps. 

hhe

Hi Ray,

thank you very much for your reply!
I did my tests yesterday like you described, but to double check I did a retest today. I don't own Pentax flashes, but in addition to the Metz 58 AF-1 I get a Metz M400 (Pentax version) some weeks ago. So I used both flashes for the retest.

Here are my findings:

Metz 58 AF-1 or Metz M400 on camera hotshoe (K-1 in manual mode):
- In P-TTL / 1. curtain mode, the shutter speed is limited to 1/200 sec and longer. I can't select a shorter shutter time on the camera.
- In P-TTL / 2. curtain (rear) mode, the shutter speed is limited to 1/100 sec and
longer. I can't select a shorter shutter time on the camera.

Metz 58 AF-1 on camera hotshoe (K-1 in manual mode):
- In P-TTL HSS mode, the 2.curtain  (rear) option isn't selectable. It isn't shown in the menu of the flash.
- In P-TTL / 2. curtain (rear) mode, the flash shows "REAR" in the display to indicate, that it's active and it is. I tested with a 2'' shutter time.
- In manual mode (flash), I can select  (and really use) the 2. curtain option. (This is not implemented for the M400 at the moment)

Cactus V6II (camers and flash system set to Pentax, TTL for pass-thru is displayed) between Metz 58 AF-1 and camera hotshoe (K-1 in manual mode):
- In P-TTL / 2. curtain (rear) mode, the flash didn't show "REAR" in the display and it really isn't active. I tested with a 2'' shutter time.
- In P-TTL / 1. and 2. curtain (rear) mode, the shutter time isn't limited, but when the shutter time is faster then the sync time (1/200'') the pictures are nearly totally dark.

Cactus V6II (camers and flash
system set to Pentax, TTL for pass-thru is displayed) between Metz M400 and camera hotshoe (K-1 in manual mode):
- In P-TTL / 2.
curtain (rear) mode, no flash at the 2. curtain, so not working. I tested with a 2'' shutter time.
- In P-TTL HSS the pictures stay nearly totally dark (like in non HSS mode), when
the shutter time is faster then the sync time (1/200'').

So, as a short summary, it seems, as if the P-TTL protocol isn't 100% passed thru at the moment (firmware version 1.1.010). I would be very happy, if you can find and fix the problem.

Best regards,
Heike

Class A

Hi Heike,

are you configuring the V6II manually so that the flash system is "PENTAX" and the flash model is "METZ 58AF-1", for instance?

I'm pretty sure Metz flashes for Pentax are not supported with respect to flash auto-detection so unless you tell the V6II about your specific flash model, it won't be supported properly.

There might be an actual full-P-TTL support issue, but I thought it would be useful to rule out the case of the V6II still being set to auto-detect the flash model.

hhe

Hi Class A,

I set the camera system and the flash system manually to Pentax. And I selected the Metz 58 AF-2 profile, but as I understand, the profile don't influence the P-TTL pass-thru communication, but is used for the remote power and zoom controlling.

Best regards,
Heike

Class A

And I selected the Metz 58 AF-2 profile, but as I understand, the profile don't influence the P-TTL pass-thru communication, but is used for the remote power and zoom controlling. 

I think you meant to write "Metz 58 AF-1" profile.

The setting of the flash profile on the Tx (on-camera transmitter) unit is not used for remote controlling.

I know that it is used for controlling a flash that sits on the on-camera V6II Tx unit when the Tx unit is not in TTL pass-through mode.

I'm not sure whether the chosen flash profile (on the Tx unit) matters if the Tx unit is in TTL pass-through mode.

I tried your test scenarios with my Metz 58 AF-2 and noticed a problem:

If the 58 AF-2 sits directly on the camera then I can select "REAR" (rear-curtain sync) on the flash (in P-TTL mode) and the flash then confirms the activation of rear-curtain sync by displaying "REAR" in a frame.

If I try the same with a V6II (in TTL pass-through mode) sandwiched between the camera and the 58 AF-2, I can toggle the "REAR" setting on the flash just fine, but the flash never confirms "REAR" by displaying it in a frame. So something about "TTL pass-through" is not completely transparent.

You might have a wider issue, though, as automatic metering does not appear to work even for first-curtain sync.

I wonder whether your V6II is making correct contact with the hot-shoe of the camera. I always set the camera system manually to "Pentax" but for trouble-shooting purposes it can be better to set the camera system to "AUTO" and let the V6II detect the camera. Try that configuration and turn the V6II on while tapping the shutter release button on your camera lightly (you just want to keep the camera active, so that it keeps its metering mode active). If the V6II then displays a "P" in a camera symbol after a short moment then you know that it is making proper contact with the hot-shoe. If it does not, try wiggling the V6II a bit in the hot-shoe and try again. You may also need to turn the lever a bit tighter (but don't break it off , it does not go very far ).

Good luck.

hhe

Let's forget the Metz M400 for now...

And I selected the Metz 58 AF-2 profile, but as I understand, the profile don't influence the P-TTL pass-thru communication, but is used for the remote power and zoom controlling. 

I think you meant to write "Metz 58 AF-1" profile.

No typo, I really meant the "Metz 58 AF-2" profile, because there is no "Metz 58 AF-1" profile on the V6II or I'm very blind :-)

The setting of the flash profile on the Tx (on-camera transmitter) unit is not used for remote controlling.

I know that it is used for controlling a flash that sits on the on-camera V6II Tx unit when the Tx unit is not in TTL pass-through mode.

That's exactly my understanding/thinking.

I tried your test scenarios with my Metz 58 AF-2 and noticed a problem:

If the 58 AF-2 sits directly on the camera then I can select "REAR" (rear-curtain sync) on the flash (in P-TTL mode) and the flash then confirms the activation of rear-curtain sync by displaying "REAR" in a frame.

If I try the same with a V6II (in TTL pass-through mode) sandwiched between the camera and the 58 AF-2, I can toggle the "REAR" setting on the flash just fine, but the flash never confirms "REAR" by displaying it in a frame. So something about "TTL pass-through" is not completely transparent.

You might have a wider issue, though, as automatic metering does not appear to work even for first-curtain sync.

Thank you for testing! That's exactly my experience!

I wonder whether your V6II is making correct contact with the hot-shoe of the camera. I always set the camera system manually to "Pentax" but for trouble-shooting purposes it can be better to set the camera system to "AUTO" and let the V6II detect the camera. Try that configuration and turn the V6II on while tapping the shutter release button on your camera lightly (you just want to keep the camera active, so that it keeps its metering mode active). If the V6II then displays a "P" in a camera symbol after a short moment then you know that it is making proper contact with the hot-shoe. If it does not, try wiggling the V6II a bit in the hot-shoe and try again. You may also need to turn the lever a bit tighter (but don't break it off , it does not go very far ).

I gave it a try and the auto detection of the camera system works perfect.

Maybe you have the time to try the following, first with the flash sitting directly on the camera.

Set the flash to manual mode with REAR option ON.Do you see "MZoom" or "AZoom" at the display? Try some shots with different exposure times. Let's say 2", 1", 0.5", 1/100 and try 1/200.

Set the flash to manual mode with REAR option OFF.Do you see "MZoom" or "AZoom" at the display? Try some shots with different exposure times. Let's say 2", 1", 0.5", 1/100 and try 1/200.

Now, try the same 2 sequences with the V6II (in TTL pass-through mode) sandwiched between the camera and your 58 AF-2.

What is your experience? And please don't forget to compare the exposures.

And just as a side info. Remote controlling a Fuji EF-42 (sitting on a V6II set to RX) from a Pentax camera system (V6II set to TX sitting an the camera) seems to work :-) The compatibility table in the manual made me thinking, that this combination don't work.

Class A

No typo, I really meant the "Metz 58 AF-2" profile, because there is no "Metz 58 AF-1" profile on the V6II or I'm very blind :-)

You are not very blind.
That's good news, considering that you are interested in photography.

I thought the Metz 58 AF-1 was supported by the V6II, which it is but only for Canon, not for Pentax.

Not to worry, though, as using a different profile for a similar flash is often not a problem at all.

I gave it a try and the auto detection of the camera system works perfect.

Great, that's an important hurdle out of the way!

We seem to be facing a partial incompatibility with Metz flashes.

Maybe you have the time to try the following, first with the flash sitting directly on the camera. ...

I'll do it as soon as possible.

Perhaps before I try, could you respond to my question below?

Do you see "MZoom" or "AZoom" at the display?

Well, wouldn't that solely depend on my choice? Through the "Para" menu, I can either choose a manual zoom setting (MZoom) or let the camera control the zoom setting (AZoom). The latter option is only available when the flash head is pointing straightforward, i.e., you must not have it in ceiling bounce position or even partially towards a ceiling bounce position.

Remote controlling a Fuji EF-42 (sitting on a V6II set to RX) from a Pentax camera system (V6II set to TX sitting an the camera) seems to work :-) The compatibility table in the manual made me thinking, that this combination don't work.

Indeed, the combination should not work according to the compatibility table.

Are you successfully using HSS?

If you only consider plain triggering and do not exceed the sync-speed of your camera then I wouldn't be surprised for the Fuji flash (or any other flash for that matter) to work with the V6II.

Only if you are trying to exploit system-dedicated features like HSS, you should be seeing limitations regarding compatibility.

hhe

@ Class A:

About MZoom & AZoom: Yes, you are right, that's the normal behaviour as long as the flash is sitting on the camera hot shoe. But, if I didn't do any mistakes during my tests, then you will see only MZoom in the flash display when the V6II is sitting between flash and camera. Not need to say, that we are only talking about pass-through mode for now :-)

About the Fuji flash: I didn't try to use HSS. I was happy enough for the moment, that I could control power and zoom :-) :-)

Class A

Maybe you have the time to try the following, first with the flash sitting directly on the camera.

Set the flash to manual mode with REAR option ON.Do you see "MZoom" or "AZoom" at the display? Try some shots with different exposure times. Let's say 2", 1", 0.5", 1/100 and try 1/200.

I see "AZoom" (as that's what I selected earlier on).

Exposures are fine (I chose my flash power (1/32) and camera settings accordingly), but note that I cannot select 1/200 due to "REAR" being set to "ON". At 1/200s the idea of second-curtain sync would become meaningless (being the same as first curtain-sync) so that restriction makes sense.

Set the flash to manual mode with REAR option OFF.Do you see "MZoom" or "AZoom" at the display? Try some shots with different exposure times. Let's say 2", 1", 0.5", 1/100 and try 1/200.

I still seee "AZoom".

Now all shutters speeds (up to 1/200s) are available (due to "REAR" being set to "OFF").

Exposures are as before (with different flash timing).

Now, try the same 2 sequences with the V6II (in TTL pass-through mode) sandwiched between the camera and your 58 AF-2.

What is your experience?

I still see "AZoom", however, quite a few things are different compared to the flash being connected to the camera directly:

1. I can select all shutter speeds all the time, i.e., there is no limitation to the sync-speed or half the sync-speed when "REAR" is turned "ON".
   
   The V6II clearly does not perform a plain "pass-through" but keeps pretending to be an HSS device for the camera. That does not change, even if I set the "SYNC MODE" to "HSS OFF".
   
   
2. When "REAR" is set to "ON", the flash fires too late resulting only in the ambient light being recorded.
   
   The V6II clearly has a problem in TTL pass-through mode when the Metz 58 AF-2 is configured to use second-curtain sync.
   

I guess it makes sense for the V6II to not completely morph into a Metz 58 AF-2, even if TTL pass-through is selected, as one may want to trigger other off-camera flashes in different modes. The wrong synchronisation for the second-curtain sync seems avoidable, though.

hhe

Hello Class A,

sorry for answering late, but I went to holidays for two weeks and I'm back since yesterday night...
First of all, many thanks for your testing!!

Your experiences are nearly the same like mine. But I have to re-check the zoom setting AZoom/MZoom when the Cactus is sandwiched between camera and flash. I'm nearly sure, that I only saw MZoom.
I'm not sure, if I will find the time for more tests next week, but I definitly will share new experiences from time to time. And the more I will understand the system, the more I will be able to devide possible "bugs" from "features" :-)
Maybe the Cactus team can fix the REAR SYNC problem with the Metz flash.

Class A

Cool.

Antonio

Maybe the Cactus team can fix the REAR SYNC problem with the Metz flash.

I have notified R&D about this and hopefully will have an answer for you soon.

Thank you for your understanding during this time.

Antonio

@hhe, I confirmed with R&D that REAR SYNC is not supported on Multi-brand HSS firmware.

There is a chance the X-TTL firmware for Pentax should support this.

Thank you.

hhe

@Antonio: Thank you very much for the info.

Antonio

@Antonio: Thank you very much for the info.

You are always welcome! 

Just shout if you need anything else.

Cheers!